Comments on: Free public transport is struck by the law of unintended consequences http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/ Daily views on British politics and the Conservative Party from a centre-right thinker who writes letters on his blog to politicians, journalists and many others. Tue, 16 Mar 2010 18:41:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: wayne foulkes http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-7227 wayne foulkes Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:23:21 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-7227 Well i am a bus driver and have been for twelve years. Ive just finished a twelve hour shift in g yarmouth. You talk about the cost of this free bus pass scheme. I can tell you it is been well abused. I pick up the same people day in day out who go miles and miles for what? Just because they can. Why do you think youre council tax is rising? Yes good luck to them to be able to get around but come on it needs timlits and so many journeys. The system here is they can use it from 8.30am beleive me there there bang on. Why should my council tax and everyone elses rise to pay for this? I can hardly afford to live as it is. The people i pick up most of them the houses they own are amazing i can only dream of owning one. It should be means tested. The council here also hand out the disabled passes if someone as a cold it seems to me. Honestley you people who make the rules really need to get a grip of this its allmost like benefit fraud. Why the hell should my hard earned money pay for all this?<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('7227','wayne foulkes'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('7227','wayne foulkes','Well i am a bus driver and have been for twelve years. Ive just finished a twelve hour shift in g yarmouth. You talk about the cost of this free bus pass scheme. I can tell you it is been well abused. I pick up the same people day in day out who go miles and miles for what? Just because they can. Why do you think youre council tax is rising? Yes good luck to them to be able to get around but come on it needs timlits and so many journeys. The system here is they can use it from 8.30am beleive me there there bang on. Why should my council tax and everyone elses rise to pay for this? I can hardly afford to live as it is. The people i pick up most of them the houses they own are amazing i can only dream of owning one. It should be means tested. The council here also hand out the disabled passes if someone as a cold it seems to me. Honestley you people who make the rules really need to get a grip of this its allmost like benefit fraud. Why the hell should my hard earned money pay for all this?'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> Well i am a bus driver and have been for twelve years. Ive just finished a twelve hour shift in g yarmouth. You talk about the cost of this free bus pass scheme. I can tell you it is been well abused. I pick up the same people day in day out who go miles and miles for what? Just because they can. Why do you think youre council tax is rising? Yes good luck to them to be able to get around but come on it needs timlits and so many journeys. The system here is they can use it from 8.30am beleive me there there bang on. Why should my council tax and everyone elses rise to pay for this? I can hardly afford to live as it is. The people i pick up most of them the houses they own are amazing i can only dream of owning one. It should be means tested. The council here also hand out the disabled passes if someone as a cold it seems to me. Honestley you people who make the rules really need to get a grip of this its allmost like benefit fraud. Why the hell should my hard earned money pay for all this?
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]]> By: Shaun Pilkington http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-5845 Shaun Pilkington Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:00:33 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-5845 Seriously, administer the passes for the elderly and disabled via the DWP and make massive savings from Local Authority Social Security beaurocrats. That should cover lcal bus budet shortfalls! While strangely making the system more robust through tying it diredtlyt to a more comprehensively checked system!<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5845','Shaun Pilkington'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5845','Shaun Pilkington','Seriously, administer the passes for the elderly and disabled via the DWP and make massive savings from Local Authority Social Security beaurocrats. That should cover lcal bus budet shortfalls! While strangely making the system more robust through tying it diredtlyt to a more comprehensively checked system!'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> Seriously, administer the passes for the elderly and disabled via the DWP and make massive savings from Local Authority Social Security beaurocrats. That should cover lcal bus budet shortfalls! While strangely making the system more robust through tying it diredtlyt to a more comprehensively checked system!
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]]> By: LFAT http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-5843 LFAT Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:36:00 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-5843 I think the administrative cost is a key point here. All this means testing and pointless public-sector-job-creation schemes carries costs that go far beyond the actual financial benefit given to the intended recipients. That's one of the big reasons that I detest tax credits so much - not just their dodgy philosophy but also the number of civil servants they cost and the extra public sector pension burden that comes with it.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5843','LFAT'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5843','LFAT','I think the administrative cost is a key point here. All this means testing and pointless public-sector-job-creation schemes carries costs that go far beyond the actual financial benefit given to the intended recipients. That\'s one of the big reasons that I detest tax credits so much - not just their dodgy philosophy but also the number of civil servants they cost and the extra public sector pension burden that comes with it.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> I think the administrative cost is a key point here. All this means testing and pointless public-sector-job-creation schemes carries costs that go far beyond the actual financial benefit given to the intended recipients. That’s one of the big reasons that I detest tax credits so much – not just their dodgy philosophy but also the number of civil servants they cost and the extra public sector pension burden that comes with it.
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]]> By: Stu http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-5839 Stu Fri, 09 Jan 2009 12:00:45 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-5839 Free Bus Passes for the elderly has been a particular bug-bear of mine <a href="http://stuartsharpe.co.uk/2008/08/06/more-on-the-bloody-buses/" rel="nofollow">for a while now</a>. Like you, I don't object in principle to helping pensioners use buses to get around - but I can't do anything other than object to being entirely unable to get on bus to the local countryside (and since I live in Derby, taking a bus to the Peaks was a favourite activity before the bus passes arrived, particularly since there's no train services beyond Matlock) because the bus is entirely full of elderly people who <em>I am already paying for</em>. It's not good for the fare-paying passengers, it's <em>awful</em> for the bus companies, and it's only really useful for 'urban' pensioners anyway, since rural bus services are atrocious. This whole debacle just proves the axiom "they're not do-gooders: they're well-meaners". I agree with patently: a rise in pensions would have been more useful to more people and would have had fewer negative consequences.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5839','Stu'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5839','Stu','Free Bus Passes for the elderly has been a particular bug-bear of mine <a href=\"http:\/\/stuartsharpe.co.uk\/2008\/08\/06\/more-on-the-bloody-buses\/\" rel=\"nofollow\">for a while now<\/a>. Like you, I don\'t object in principle to helping pensioners use buses to get around - but I can\'t do anything other than object to being entirely unable to get on bus to the local countryside (and since I live in Derby, taking a bus to the Peaks was a favourite activity before the bus passes arrived, particularly since there\'s no train services beyond Matlock) because the bus is entirely full of elderly people who <em>I am already paying for<\/em>.\r\n\r\nIt\'s not good for the fare-paying passengers, it\'s <em>awful<\/em> for the bus companies, and it\'s only really useful for \'urban\' pensioners anyway, since rural bus services are atrocious. This whole debacle just proves the axiom \"they\'re not do-gooders: they\'re well-meaners\".\r\n\r\nI agree with patently: a rise in pensions would have been more useful to more people and would have had fewer negative consequences.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> Free Bus Passes for the elderly has been a particular bug-bear of mine for a while now. Like you, I don’t object in principle to helping pensioners use buses to get around – but I can’t do anything other than object to being entirely unable to get on bus to the local countryside (and since I live in Derby, taking a bus to the Peaks was a favourite activity before the bus passes arrived, particularly since there’s no train services beyond Matlock) because the bus is entirely full of elderly people who I am already paying for.

It’s not good for the fare-paying passengers, it’s awful for the bus companies, and it’s only really useful for ‘urban’ pensioners anyway, since rural bus services are atrocious. This whole debacle just proves the axiom “they’re not do-gooders: they’re well-meaners”.

I agree with patently: a rise in pensions would have been more useful to more people and would have had fewer negative consequences.

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]]> By: Shaun Pilkington http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-5838 Shaun Pilkington Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:31:18 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-5838 ITs all part of the crazy world of disability. Why does the DWP have a 40 page form assessed by doctors, who contact your medical professionals (consultants, GPs) to asses the claim? I'm guessing its because Disability Living Allowance is the key to the kingdom - that's pretty much as close as you're going to come to official recognition of being a cripple which matters for all sorts of thing. Fine. But then if you want a blue badge for parking, you get a 2 page form assessed by the Local Authority's Social Services division (which usually turns on whether you get DLA). Same for the Bus. Why isn't it all just automatically done by the DWP? I suspect its to put hurdles in place to stop benefit scroungers having an easy time with a one stop shop but it also makes it very annoying for genuinely disabled people to apply for stuff and carries a clear administrative overhead cost to the taxpayer. And since scrounging is still a national sport, I'd suggest that it doesn't work too well on either measure and this is one of the areas I would like to see reformed, both as a service user and a taxpayer!<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5838','Shaun Pilkington'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5838','Shaun Pilkington','ITs all part of the crazy world of disability. Why does the DWP have a 40 page form assessed by doctors, who contact your medical professionals (consultants, GPs) to asses the claim? I\'m guessing its because Disability Living Allowance is the key to the kingdom - that\'s pretty much as close as you\'re going to come to official recognition of being a cripple which matters for all sorts of thing. Fine. But then if you want a blue badge for parking, you get a 2 page form assessed by the Local Authority\'s Social Services division (which usually turns on whether you get DLA). Same for the Bus. Why isn\'t it all just automatically done by the DWP?\r\n\r\nI suspect its to put hurdles in place to stop benefit scroungers having an easy time with a one stop shop but it also makes it very annoying for genuinely disabled people to apply for stuff and carries a clear administrative overhead cost to the taxpayer. And since scrounging is still a national sport, I\'d suggest that it doesn\'t work too well on either measure and this is one of the areas I would like to see reformed, both as a service user and a taxpayer!'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> ITs all part of the crazy world of disability. Why does the DWP have a 40 page form assessed by doctors, who contact your medical professionals (consultants, GPs) to asses the claim? I’m guessing its because Disability Living Allowance is the key to the kingdom – that’s pretty much as close as you’re going to come to official recognition of being a cripple which matters for all sorts of thing. Fine. But then if you want a blue badge for parking, you get a 2 page form assessed by the Local Authority’s Social Services division (which usually turns on whether you get DLA). Same for the Bus. Why isn’t it all just automatically done by the DWP?

I suspect its to put hurdles in place to stop benefit scroungers having an easy time with a one stop shop but it also makes it very annoying for genuinely disabled people to apply for stuff and carries a clear administrative overhead cost to the taxpayer. And since scrounging is still a national sport, I’d suggest that it doesn’t work too well on either measure and this is one of the areas I would like to see reformed, both as a service user and a taxpayer!

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]]> By: Bill Quango MP http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-5837 Bill Quango MP Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:25:34 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-5837 Regularly used to make a 60 mile journey home and arrived the same time as Mrs Quango's 7 mile bus journey.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5837','Bill Quango MP'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5837','Bill Quango MP','Regularly used to make a 60 mile journey home and arrived the same time as Mrs Quango\'s 7 mile bus journey.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> Regularly used to make a 60 mile journey home and arrived the same time as Mrs Quango’s 7 mile bus journey.
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]]> By: LFAT http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-5836 LFAT Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:23:18 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-5836 Mike, it's probably quite hard to put a precise figure on exactly what the underspend is seeing as each council deals with different bus operators. I agree that local government oftens gets dumped with schemes by central government instead of being given the money to find a solution in the first place. Buses are clearly far from perfect but I still think this scheme is a waste of money, as Shaun has wonderfully demonstrated. Free bus passes being handed out without a moment's thought is unacceptable.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5836','LFAT'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5836','LFAT','Mike, it\'s probably quite hard to put a precise figure on exactly what the underspend is seeing as each council deals with different bus operators. I agree that local government oftens gets dumped with schemes by central government instead of being given the money to find a solution in the first place.\n\nBuses are clearly far from perfect but I still think this scheme is a waste of money, as Shaun has wonderfully demonstrated. Free bus passes being handed out without a moment\'s thought is unacceptable.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> Mike, it’s probably quite hard to put a precise figure on exactly what the underspend is seeing as each council deals with different bus operators. I agree that local government oftens gets dumped with schemes by central government instead of being given the money to find a solution in the first place.

Buses are clearly far from perfect but I still think this scheme is a waste of money, as Shaun has wonderfully demonstrated. Free bus passes being handed out without a moment’s thought is unacceptable.

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]]> By: Shaun Pilkington http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-5835 Shaun Pilkington Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:17:11 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-5835 I actually have a free bus pass because of my MS. Great. What's odd though is that I thought that travel was what I get £180/mo higher rate Mobility Component of the Disability Living Allowance for...<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5835','Shaun Pilkington'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5835','Shaun Pilkington','I actually have a free bus pass because of my MS. Great. What\'s odd though is that I thought that travel was what I get £180\/mo higher rate Mobility Component of the Disability Living Allowance for...'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> I actually have a free bus pass because of my MS. Great. What’s odd though is that I thought that travel was what I get £180/mo higher rate Mobility Component of the Disability Living Allowance for…
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]]> By: Mike Spilligan http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-5834 Mike Spilligan Fri, 09 Jan 2009 09:36:59 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-5834 More importantly, there must be many things which put costs on to local government, are covered by local taxation, but are there as a result of central Government diktat. I suspect that the anecdotal increase of 100% in the "Community Charge" over the last ten years is much because of that, and to avoid the costs being funded out of general taxation breaking the NewLabour "pledge" not to increase income tax. By the way, the bus passes aren't that wonderful. I have a relative living in outer London who normally uses a car to make regular visits to a friend. Usual time by car; <20 mins each way. Alternative (tried once only) by four "free" buses; 2 hours each way. Are we sure that the LGA isn't exaggerating the problem? It does like to moan, bit is loath to take action.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5834','Mike Spilligan'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5834','Mike Spilligan','More importantly, there must be many things which put costs on to local government, are covered by local taxation, but are there as a result of central Government diktat.\r\nI suspect that the anecdotal increase of 100% in the \"Community Charge\" over the last ten years is much because of that, and to avoid the costs being funded out of general taxation breaking the NewLabour \"pledge\" not to increase income tax.\r\nBy the way, the bus passes aren\'t that wonderful. I have a relative living in outer London who normally uses a car to make regular visits to a friend. Usual time by car; <20 mins each way. Alternative (tried once only) by four \"free\" buses; 2 hours each way. Are we sure that the LGA isn\'t exaggerating the problem? It does like to moan, bit is loath to take action.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> More importantly, there must be many things which put costs on to local government, are covered by local taxation, but are there as a result of central Government diktat.
I suspect that the anecdotal increase of 100% in the “Community Charge” over the last ten years is much because of that, and to avoid the costs being funded out of general taxation breaking the NewLabour “pledge” not to increase income tax.
By the way, the bus passes aren’t that wonderful. I have a relative living in outer London who normally uses a car to make regular visits to a friend. Usual time by car; <20 mins each way. Alternative (tried once only) by four “free” buses; 2 hours each way. Are we sure that the LGA isn’t exaggerating the problem? It does like to moan, bit is loath to take action.
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]]> By: LFAT http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2009/01/09/free-public-transport-is-struck-by-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/#comment-5833 LFAT Fri, 09 Jan 2009 09:36:08 +0000 http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1808#comment-5833 I like that angle. Giving pensioners bus passes is always a political winner but you're right to point out that increasing their income would make sense as well. I suppose that over-60s who don't need to / want to use buses must be pretty peeved that others benefits when they don't, which your suggestion would deal with.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('5833','LFAT'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a> - <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('5833','LFAT','I like that angle. Giving pensioners bus passes is always a political winner but you\'re right to point out that increasing their income would make sense as well. \n\nI suppose that over-60s who don\'t need to \/ want to use buses must be pretty peeved that others benefits when they don\'t, which your suggestion would deal with.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div> I like that angle. Giving pensioners bus passes is always a political winner but you’re right to point out that increasing their income would make sense as well.

I suppose that over-60s who don’t need to / want to use buses must be pretty peeved that others benefits when they don’t, which your suggestion would deal with.

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