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	<title>Comments on: New evidence that more generous state benefits leads to more &#8217;scroungers&#8217;</title>
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	<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/</link>
	<description>Daily views on British politics and the Conservative Party from a centre-right thinker who writes letters on his blog to politicians, journalists and many others.</description>
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		<title>By: tory boys never grow up</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5483</link>
		<dc:creator>tory boys never grow up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5483</guid>
		<description>Your comment on immigrants families is plain wrong - the figures for dependent families fell in absolute terms - no amount of extra immigrants not entitled to benefits would in itself lead to a fall in absolute numbers - unless of course we assumed that they gave an overall stimulus to the economy; which somehow I doubt is your argument.

Also the demographics argument looks weak - the population is ageing which normally leads to an increase in dependency figures.

Complete red herrings I&#039;m afraid!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your comment on immigrants families is plain wrong &#8211; the figures for dependent families fell in absolute terms &#8211; no amount of extra immigrants not entitled to benefits would in itself lead to a fall in absolute numbers &#8211; unless of course we assumed that they gave an overall stimulus to the economy; which somehow I doubt is your argument.</p>
<p>Also the demographics argument looks weak &#8211; the population is ageing which normally leads to an increase in dependency figures.</p>
<p>Complete red herrings I&#8217;m afraid!</p>
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		<title>By: tory boys never grow up</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5482</link>
		<dc:creator>tory boys never grow up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5482</guid>
		<description>If you read what I said about the reduction of the dependency culture carefully you will see that I didn&#039;t claim causality - but interesting that you inferred it, I think you must assume that I am committing the same sins as yourself (look at the &quot;leads&quot; in your headline)

As for the reduction in dependency - here is what the report actually concluded:

&quot;The proportion of families receiving more in ‘net state support’ than from wages and unearned income rose
from 25% in 1979 to 31% in 1996-97, before falling back to 28% in 2008-09.&quot;  

I&#039;m sorry that you don&#039;t think that this is good news - and doesn&#039;t represent a sharp reduction, but given what happened in the past and the historical trend it looks a pretty sharp reduction in my eyes.  I wonder what your explanation is for the increase in the figure from 1979 to 96/97 and its subsequent reduction - makes you wonder what the Government was doing between 1979 and 96/97.  My guess if Labour had been in power in those years you would have pointed to those figures as evidence of their inherent Marxism or worse - and you know that I&#039;m not wrong!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you read what I said about the reduction of the dependency culture carefully you will see that I didn&#8217;t claim causality &#8211; but interesting that you inferred it, I think you must assume that I am committing the same sins as yourself (look at the &#8220;leads&#8221; in your headline)</p>
<p>As for the reduction in dependency &#8211; here is what the report actually concluded:</p>
<p>&#8220;The proportion of families receiving more in ‘net state support’ than from wages and unearned income rose<br />
from 25% in 1979 to 31% in 1996-97, before falling back to 28% in 2008-09.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry that you don&#8217;t think that this is good news &#8211; and doesn&#8217;t represent a sharp reduction, but given what happened in the past and the historical trend it looks a pretty sharp reduction in my eyes.  I wonder what your explanation is for the increase in the figure from 1979 to 96/97 and its subsequent reduction &#8211; makes you wonder what the Government was doing between 1979 and 96/97.  My guess if Labour had been in power in those years you would have pointed to those figures as evidence of their inherent Marxism or worse &#8211; and you know that I&#8217;m not wrong!</p>
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		<title>By: LFAT</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5478</link>
		<dc:creator>LFAT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5478</guid>
		<description>Oh dear, you insist on digging a bigger hole for yourself.  *sigh*

I used to teach economics so don&#039;t embarrass yourself by explaining elasticities.  You claim the first study says nothing about causality (which it doesn&#039;t), only to then claim that Labour should be credited for lowering the number of people who supposedly rely on benefits - even though there is no discussion from you of what other factors may have been involved.  One rule for me and another rule for you, apparently.  For you to claim that &quot;there has been a sharp reduction in the numbers who rely on benefits for the majority of their earnings&quot; is hilarious.  If you consider a drop from 22.1 million to 19.9 million over 12 years to be a &quot;sharp reduction&quot;, I think you need a little help.  Yet again, with this figure you failed to provide any context e.g. the number of immigrants families has massively increased over this period but they are often ineligible for state benefits (particularly those from outside the EU), which would massively distort the figures - but you clearly ignored such inconveniences that don&#039;t support your ideas.

To claim that the dependency culture has been reduced without even attempting to look at other socio-demographic changes over the same period is laughably weak on your part, unscientific and frankly dishonest.  You didn&#039;t even bother to address the fact that Labour have left 19.9 million families depending on the state for at least 50% of their income, which is the most shocking example of a dependency culture I have ever heard.  Your second study only looks at those families who rely on the state for at least 50% of their income and totally sidesteps the problem of families who are forced to rely on the state for anything from 1-49% of their income.  This is a major consideration because families are taxed to oblivion by Labour, only to get a small proportion back in the form of tax credits i.e. Labour leave these families considerably worse off than they would be if the tax threshold was increased (also covered in my letter) yet they claim success for giving them some of the families their money back.

Your dishonesty and inability to see the bigger picture, despite providing evidence of how catastrophic Labour have been, is truly enlightening.  Like it or not, your evidence proves nothing other than Labour&#039;s failures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh dear, you insist on digging a bigger hole for yourself.  *sigh*</p>
<p>I used to teach economics so don&#8217;t embarrass yourself by explaining elasticities.  You claim the first study says nothing about causality (which it doesn&#8217;t), only to then claim that Labour should be credited for lowering the number of people who supposedly rely on benefits &#8211; even though there is no discussion from you of what other factors may have been involved.  One rule for me and another rule for you, apparently.  For you to claim that &#8220;there has been a sharp reduction in the numbers who rely on benefits for the majority of their earnings&#8221; is hilarious.  If you consider a drop from 22.1 million to 19.9 million over 12 years to be a &#8220;sharp reduction&#8221;, I think you need a little help.  Yet again, with this figure you failed to provide any context e.g. the number of immigrants families has massively increased over this period but they are often ineligible for state benefits (particularly those from outside the EU), which would massively distort the figures &#8211; but you clearly ignored such inconveniences that don&#8217;t support your ideas.</p>
<p>To claim that the dependency culture has been reduced without even attempting to look at other socio-demographic changes over the same period is laughably weak on your part, unscientific and frankly dishonest.  You didn&#8217;t even bother to address the fact that Labour have left 19.9 million families depending on the state for at least 50% of their income, which is the most shocking example of a dependency culture I have ever heard.  Your second study only looks at those families who rely on the state for at least 50% of their income and totally sidesteps the problem of families who are forced to rely on the state for anything from 1-49% of their income.  This is a major consideration because families are taxed to oblivion by Labour, only to get a small proportion back in the form of tax credits i.e. Labour leave these families considerably worse off than they would be if the tax threshold was increased (also covered in my letter) yet they claim success for giving them some of the families their money back.</p>
<p>Your dishonesty and inability to see the bigger picture, despite providing evidence of how catastrophic Labour have been, is truly enlightening.  Like it or not, your evidence proves nothing other than Labour&#8217;s failures.</p>
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		<title>By: tory boys never grow up</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5476</link>
		<dc:creator>tory boys never grow up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5476</guid>
		<description>All the study says is that in the case of couples (including those working on tax credits) is that there is a slight positive elasticity between increased benefits/tax credits and child birth.  I hate to tell you that there is a positive elasticity between levels of income and most things - yes it does increase the probability - but by how much and what other factors may have an impact??  If you knew more than a little about economics you would know that the 10% elasticity is actually a small figure in relation to income - and it says nothing about causality.  I suspect that you may find those being helped by the government may also do all sorts of other virtuous things as well as having children in 2 parent families (for that is the population to which the survey relates)

The way in which you (and the Daily Telegraph) have misquoted a serious academic study in order to try and support your political views really is nothing short of scandalous.  To then compond this by your observation on loan parents really just compounds your unscientific approach even further - if you look at the first study (by the same author) he finds a negative elasticity between benefits and births to single parents - so whatever has increased the the number of loan parents he doesn&#039;t think that it is increased benefits.  

Of course you ignore this point and the main conclusion of the 2nd study namely that under Labour there has been a sharp reduction in the numbers who rely on benefits for the majority of their earnings.  Like it or not the dependency culture has been reduced under the Laboour Government! 

The academic concerned would certainly not agree with your conclusions - and to pretend otherwise is to be dishonest.  The empirical research is not mine - I just provided the links.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the study says is that in the case of couples (including those working on tax credits) is that there is a slight positive elasticity between increased benefits/tax credits and child birth.  I hate to tell you that there is a positive elasticity between levels of income and most things &#8211; yes it does increase the probability &#8211; but by how much and what other factors may have an impact??  If you knew more than a little about economics you would know that the 10% elasticity is actually a small figure in relation to income &#8211; and it says nothing about causality.  I suspect that you may find those being helped by the government may also do all sorts of other virtuous things as well as having children in 2 parent families (for that is the population to which the survey relates)</p>
<p>The way in which you (and the Daily Telegraph) have misquoted a serious academic study in order to try and support your political views really is nothing short of scandalous.  To then compond this by your observation on loan parents really just compounds your unscientific approach even further &#8211; if you look at the first study (by the same author) he finds a negative elasticity between benefits and births to single parents &#8211; so whatever has increased the the number of loan parents he doesn&#8217;t think that it is increased benefits.  </p>
<p>Of course you ignore this point and the main conclusion of the 2nd study namely that under Labour there has been a sharp reduction in the numbers who rely on benefits for the majority of their earnings.  Like it or not the dependency culture has been reduced under the Laboour Government! </p>
<p>The academic concerned would certainly not agree with your conclusions &#8211; and to pretend otherwise is to be dishonest.  The empirical research is not mine &#8211; I just provided the links.</p>
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		<title>By: LFAT</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5469</link>
		<dc:creator>LFAT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5469</guid>
		<description>Well I just read through your first link and have found that &quot;the increase in payments to families with children increased the probability of a birth. This is an important, if unintended consequence, of increasing benefits to families with children.&quot;  Admittedly the 40,000 figure does look wrong but this conclusion from the authors is precisely what my letter was about.  The report also found &quot;high levels of awareness of the new benefits even among those who were not receiving it&quot;, suggesting that handing out money in return for nothing does not go unnoticed, which was also important in my letter in terms of incentives.  Even research from the US found that &quot;there is clearly a positive statistically significant correlation between welfare generosity and fertility&quot;, suggesting that my &quot;prejudices&quot; are pretty accurate.

And while we&#039;re on the subject of lone parents, your second link showed that under Labour, the number of lone parents has rocketted from 459,000 to 791,000 - an increase of almost 60%.  Feel free to embarrass yourself with more misguided criticisms of my letters in future.

As it turns out, my supposed &quot;prejudices&quot; have been beautifully supported by your empirical research, so many thanks for the links.  It seems as though you are just as susceptible as the Daily Telegraph for not doing your research diligently enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I just read through your first link and have found that &#8220;the increase in payments to families with children increased the probability of a birth. This is an important, if unintended consequence, of increasing benefits to families with children.&#8221;  Admittedly the 40,000 figure does look wrong but this conclusion from the authors is precisely what my letter was about.  The report also found &#8220;high levels of awareness of the new benefits even among those who were not receiving it&#8221;, suggesting that handing out money in return for nothing does not go unnoticed, which was also important in my letter in terms of incentives.  Even research from the US found that &#8220;there is clearly a positive statistically significant correlation between welfare generosity and fertility&#8221;, suggesting that my &#8220;prejudices&#8221; are pretty accurate.</p>
<p>And while we&#8217;re on the subject of lone parents, your second link showed that under Labour, the number of lone parents has rocketted from 459,000 to 791,000 &#8211; an increase of almost 60%.  Feel free to embarrass yourself with more misguided criticisms of my letters in future.</p>
<p>As it turns out, my supposed &#8220;prejudices&#8221; have been beautifully supported by your empirical research, so many thanks for the links.  It seems as though you are just as susceptible as the Daily Telegraph for not doing your research diligently enough.</p>
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		<title>By: tory boys never grow up</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5463</link>
		<dc:creator>tory boys never grow up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5463</guid>
		<description>I think you or more accurately the Telegraph from which you quote are being intellectually dishonest in your reading of the study - the original reserach (issued this Summer) on which this is based can be found here:

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/cmpo/publications/papers/2007/wp177.pdf

It does not reach the same conclusions that you or the Telegraph reached.  The 40,000 figure you quote is double the 20,000 figure mentioned in the report - but even that isn&#039;t that surprising - it is a fairly natural thing for people who are already in a relationship to want to have more children when they get extra support through tax credits - but a 10% elasticity is actually a pretty low figure   The researcher certainly didn&#039;t load his report with all the value judgements that you attributed to him.  The report  also mentioned that there is a negative elasticity for those who are single - so the answer would appear to be give such people more support so that they do not become single mothers - I look foward to you and others esposing this empirically based finding as future Tory policy.  

It is also interesting to look at another piece of recently published IFS research by the same researcher - which shows that the proportion of families receiving the majority of their
income from the state declines under Labour - see http://www.ifs.org.uk/pr/state_private.pdf  - which of course again flies in the face of the usual Tory view. 

Back to the drawing board - old bean - if you want to use academic studies to support your predujices in future - could I please suggest that you do so a little bit more diligently rather than relying on the unreliable filter of the Daily Telegraph.   In the meantime, in the spirit of Christmas, could I perhaps suggest that you read a bit of Dickens - I think you will find that many Tories had the same view in those days about how benefits encouraged the feckless poor to breed.  Perhaps you might wish to look at movements in birth rates and state benefits since Dickens time - if you want some long term empirical evidence!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you or more accurately the Telegraph from which you quote are being intellectually dishonest in your reading of the study &#8211; the original reserach (issued this Summer) on which this is based can be found here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bristol.ac.uk/cmpo/publications/papers/2007/wp177.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.bristol.ac.uk/cmpo/publications/papers/2007/wp177.pdf</a></p>
<p>It does not reach the same conclusions that you or the Telegraph reached.  The 40,000 figure you quote is double the 20,000 figure mentioned in the report &#8211; but even that isn&#8217;t that surprising &#8211; it is a fairly natural thing for people who are already in a relationship to want to have more children when they get extra support through tax credits &#8211; but a 10% elasticity is actually a pretty low figure   The researcher certainly didn&#8217;t load his report with all the value judgements that you attributed to him.  The report  also mentioned that there is a negative elasticity for those who are single &#8211; so the answer would appear to be give such people more support so that they do not become single mothers &#8211; I look foward to you and others esposing this empirically based finding as future Tory policy.  </p>
<p>It is also interesting to look at another piece of recently published IFS research by the same researcher &#8211; which shows that the proportion of families receiving the majority of their<br />
income from the state declines under Labour &#8211; see <a href="http://www.ifs.org.uk/pr/state_private.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ifs.org.uk/pr/state_private.pdf</a>  &#8211; which of course again flies in the face of the usual Tory view. </p>
<p>Back to the drawing board &#8211; old bean &#8211; if you want to use academic studies to support your predujices in future &#8211; could I please suggest that you do so a little bit more diligently rather than relying on the unreliable filter of the Daily Telegraph.   In the meantime, in the spirit of Christmas, could I perhaps suggest that you read a bit of Dickens &#8211; I think you will find that many Tories had the same view in those days about how benefits encouraged the feckless poor to breed.  Perhaps you might wish to look at movements in birth rates and state benefits since Dickens time &#8211; if you want some long term empirical evidence!</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Pilkington</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5462</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun Pilkington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5462</guid>
		<description>I should add that my above comment would rely on multiple governments being able to adhere to such a plan which in a 5-year, First Past The Post environment would require a completely unprecedented level of consensus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add that my above comment would rely on multiple governments being able to adhere to such a plan which in a 5-year, First Past The Post environment would require a completely unprecedented level of consensus.</p>
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		<title>By: Shaun Pilkington</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5461</link>
		<dc:creator>Shaun Pilkington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5461</guid>
		<description>Then don&#039;t tie it to age or relationships. Tie it to the one thing that matters in this society - the responsibility to work if you can and to do as well as you can at it.  Connect, as I suggested earlier, Child Benefit, and controversially levels thereof, to the relieved National Insurance contributions of the mother.  Then take a maximalist view and set the scale of that payment to match the curve of age in which women have the healthiest babies who become the most succesful children (18-38 as over 40 leads to a higher incidence of birth defects set against parent better placed finacnially and educationally to raise a child) to dovetail the current expenditure with future healthcare &amp; benefits savings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then don&#8217;t tie it to age or relationships. Tie it to the one thing that matters in this society &#8211; the responsibility to work if you can and to do as well as you can at it.  Connect, as I suggested earlier, Child Benefit, and controversially levels thereof, to the relieved National Insurance contributions of the mother.  Then take a maximalist view and set the scale of that payment to match the curve of age in which women have the healthiest babies who become the most succesful children (18-38 as over 40 leads to a higher incidence of birth defects set against parent better placed finacnially and educationally to raise a child) to dovetail the current expenditure with future healthcare &amp; benefits savings.</p>
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		<title>By: LFAT</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5460</link>
		<dc:creator>LFAT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5460</guid>
		<description>NN, I saw your post on the subject and we seem to be thinking along similar lines.  The reality is that the long-term solution to this problem - and yes Lefties, it is a problem - is quite feasible and would save the taxpayer billions every year.  It all comes down to the lack of personal responsibility, as with so many Labour policy disasters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NN, I saw your post on the subject and we seem to be thinking along similar lines.  The reality is that the long-term solution to this problem &#8211; and yes Lefties, it is a problem &#8211; is quite feasible and would save the taxpayer billions every year.  It all comes down to the lack of personal responsibility, as with so many Labour policy disasters.</p>
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		<title>By: North Northwester</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/12/22/new-evidence-that-more-generous-state-benefits-leads-to-more-scroungers/#comment-5459</link>
		<dc:creator>North Northwester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 18:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lettersfromatory.com/?p=1720#comment-5459</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d tie child-related benefits, allowances,premiums and disregards [important to Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefits which often seem to be left out of these calculations] to the mother&#039;s National Insurance number.

Let her choose her menfolk wisely and be aware that the benefits well will run dry after,say, a third child. This is suggested to encourage replacement breeding - that being 2.1 or 2.4 or whatever it is, because higher populations in positive sum societies such as polities of freedom actually INCREASE wealth. Specialisation increases production and the variety of products/services available. Higher populations lead to higher specialisation, so we surely don&#039;t need our country&#039;s population to decline.

Take it from one who works in, and blogs about, the Welfare State: make girls and women responsible for their actions, make them the budget-holders of whatever modest benefits you pay for families, and tell them that it&#039;s going to end when Tertius or Trinity hits five years old, and you can wave goodbye to MOST serial bastardy and MOST bed-hopping doley fast-breeders..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d tie child-related benefits, allowances,premiums and disregards [important to Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefits which often seem to be left out of these calculations] to the mother&#8217;s National Insurance number.</p>
<p>Let her choose her menfolk wisely and be aware that the benefits well will run dry after,say, a third child. This is suggested to encourage replacement breeding &#8211; that being 2.1 or 2.4 or whatever it is, because higher populations in positive sum societies such as polities of freedom actually INCREASE wealth. Specialisation increases production and the variety of products/services available. Higher populations lead to higher specialisation, so we surely don&#8217;t need our country&#8217;s population to decline.</p>
<p>Take it from one who works in, and blogs about, the Welfare State: make girls and women responsible for their actions, make them the budget-holders of whatever modest benefits you pay for families, and tell them that it&#8217;s going to end when Tertius or Trinity hits five years old, and you can wave goodbye to MOST serial bastardy and MOST bed-hopping doley fast-breeders..</p>
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