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	<title>Comments on: How nice is NICE?</title>
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	<description>Daily views on British politics and the Conservative Party from a centre-right thinker who writes letters on his blog to politicians, journalists and many others.</description>
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		<title>By: Letters From A Tory</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/08/24/how-nice-is-nice/#comment-3414</link>
		<dc:creator>Letters From A Tory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 18:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com/?p=1024#comment-3414</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t get me wrong, I&#039;m not defending the NHS as an institution - it has many failings and needs radical reform.  The amount of money wasted on management and targets is disturbing and ultimately results in less funds available for treating patients, but freeing up additional funds doesn&#039;t necessarily change the job of NICE as they should still objectively assess each new drug using tough criteria.  Don&#039;t forget that any extra money could be put to many other uses instead of pharmaceuticals.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;3414&#039;,&#039;Letters From A Tory&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply to this comment&lt;/a&gt;   -  &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;3414&#039;,&#039;Letters From A Tory&#039;,&#039;Don\&#039;t get me wrong, I\&#039;m not defending the NHS as an institution - it has many failings and needs radical reform.  The amount of money wasted on management and targets is disturbing and ultimately results in less funds available for treating patients, but freeing up additional funds doesn\&#039;t necessarily change the job of NICE as they should still objectively assess each new drug using tough criteria.  Don\&#039;t forget that any extra money could be put to many other uses instead of pharmaceuticals.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote this comment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I&#8217;m not defending the NHS as an institution &#8211; it has many failings and needs radical reform.  The amount of money wasted on management and targets is disturbing and ultimately results in less funds available for treating patients, but freeing up additional funds doesn&#8217;t necessarily change the job of NICE as they should still objectively assess each new drug using tough criteria.  Don&#8217;t forget that any extra money could be put to many other uses instead of pharmaceuticals.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3414','Letters From A Tory'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a>   &#8211;  <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3414','Letters From A Tory','Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m not defending the NHS as an institution - it has many failings and needs radical reform.  The amount of money wasted on management and targets is disturbing and ultimately results in less funds available for treating patients, but freeing up additional funds doesn\'t necessarily change the job of NICE as they should still objectively assess each new drug using tough criteria.  Don\'t forget that any extra money could be put to many other uses instead of pharmaceuticals.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div>
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		<title>By: alastair</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/08/24/how-nice-is-nice/#comment-3413</link>
		<dc:creator>alastair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 11:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com/?p=1024#comment-3413</guid>
		<description>if cost effectiveness was the underlying consideration for the NHS then it would be left with little choice but to close down.  In terms of its objectives  for healthcare you would have to question the cost effectiveness of its myriad layers of (mis)management.  At least spending money on cancer drugs has some impact on people&#039;s health!&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;3413&#039;,&#039;alastair&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply to this comment&lt;/a&gt;   -  &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;3413&#039;,&#039;alastair&#039;,&#039;if cost effectiveness was the underlying consideration for the NHS then it would be left with little choice but to close down.  In terms of its objectives  for healthcare you would have to question the cost effectiveness of its myriad layers of (mis)management.  At least spending money on cancer drugs has some impact on people\&#039;s health!&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote this comment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if cost effectiveness was the underlying consideration for the NHS then it would be left with little choice but to close down.  In terms of its objectives  for healthcare you would have to question the cost effectiveness of its myriad layers of (mis)management.  At least spending money on cancer drugs has some impact on people&#8217;s health!
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3413','alastair'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a>   &#8211;  <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3413','alastair','if cost effectiveness was the underlying consideration for the NHS then it would be left with little choice but to close down.  In terms of its objectives  for healthcare you would have to question the cost effectiveness of its myriad layers of (mis)management.  At least spending money on cancer drugs has some impact on people\'s health!'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div>
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		<title>By: Letters From A Tory</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/08/24/how-nice-is-nice/#comment-3412</link>
		<dc:creator>Letters From A Tory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com/?p=1024#comment-3412</guid>
		<description>I accept that research and development often leads to high drug costs and I have no problem with people paying for them out of their own pocket, but cost-effectiveness should still be the underlying consideration for the NHS.

I know that some HMO and private insurers are restricting access to drugs in America, although I agree that this is not always done in the same of cost-effectiveness as profitability is the main concern!&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;3412&#039;,&#039;Letters From A Tory&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply to this comment&lt;/a&gt;   -  &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;3412&#039;,&#039;Letters From A Tory&#039;,&#039;I accept that research and development often leads to high drug costs and I have no problem with people paying for them out of their own pocket, but cost-effectiveness should still be the underlying consideration for the NHS.\n\nI know that some HMO and private insurers are restricting access to drugs in America, although I agree that this is not always done in the same of cost-effectiveness as profitability is the main concern!&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote this comment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I accept that research and development often leads to high drug costs and I have no problem with people paying for them out of their own pocket, but cost-effectiveness should still be the underlying consideration for the NHS.</p>
<p>I know that some HMO and private insurers are restricting access to drugs in America, although I agree that this is not always done in the same of cost-effectiveness as profitability is the main concern!
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3412','Letters From A Tory'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a>   &#8211;  <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3412','Letters From A Tory','I accept that research and development often leads to high drug costs and I have no problem with people paying for them out of their own pocket, but cost-effectiveness should still be the underlying consideration for the NHS.\n\nI know that some HMO and private insurers are restricting access to drugs in America, although I agree that this is not always done in the same of cost-effectiveness as profitability is the main concern!'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div>
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		<title>By: fake consultant</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/08/24/how-nice-is-nice/#comment-3409</link>
		<dc:creator>fake consultant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 16:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com/?p=1024#comment-3409</guid>
		<description>couple thoughts:

--half of us healthcare is already &quot; government&quot; healthcare--medicare, the veteran&#039;s administration, military healthcare, and the federal government&#039;s employee plan cover roughly half the population.

for another 30% or so, private plans, mostly provided by employers, provide coverage...and for those folks the sort of controls you compliment are very much in place--although the motivation often seems to be ensuring profitability rather than what works best medically and economically.

excluding coverage for &quot;experimental&quot; drugs and procedures is a common way to accomplish this...and the definition of &quot;experimental&quot; can be quite flexible, depending on corporate needs.

--additionally, i note that you did not address the increasing price of nearly all new drugs.

medicare is famously not permitted to negotiate prices of drugs, the other government providers are.

the trend is for any new drug to be an expensive drug, which suggests the nhs might be vulnrerable to some of the same problems we see in the us with an ever-increasing cost of pharmaceuticals.

us consumers are generally acknowledged to be subsidizing world consumers by bearing the cost of research and testing (this because we do not have imposed drug price controls)...but if the us moves to negotiate the price of drugs for the medicare program (which will likely occur if obama wins)...and large private buyers are doing the same thing...this suggests there will be more upward pressure put on the cost of drugs for world consumers, including the nhs.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;3409&#039;,&#039;fake consultant&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply to this comment&lt;/a&gt;   -  &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;3409&#039;,&#039;fake consultant&#039;,&#039;couple thoughts:\n\n--half of us healthcare is already \&quot; government\&quot; healthcare--medicare, the veteran\&#039;s administration, military healthcare, and the federal government\&#039;s employee plan cover roughly half the population.\n\nfor another 30% or so, private plans, mostly provided by employers, provide coverage...and for those folks the sort of controls you compliment are very much in place--although the motivation often seems to be ensuring profitability rather than what works best medically and economically.\n\nexcluding coverage for \&quot;experimental\&quot; drugs and procedures is a common way to accomplish this...and the definition of \&quot;experimental\&quot; can be quite flexible, depending on corporate needs.\n\n--additionally, i note that you did not address the increasing price of nearly all new drugs.\n\nmedicare is famously not permitted to negotiate prices of drugs, the other government providers are.\n\nthe trend is for any new drug to be an expensive drug, which suggests the nhs might be vulnrerable to some of the same problems we see in the us with an ever-increasing cost of pharmaceuticals.\n\nus consumers are generally acknowledged to be subsidizing world consumers by bearing the cost of research and testing (this because we do not have imposed drug price controls)...but if the us moves to negotiate the price of drugs for the medicare program (which will likely occur if obama wins)...and large private buyers are doing the same thing...this suggests there will be more upward pressure put on the cost of drugs for world consumers, including the nhs.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote this comment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>couple thoughts:</p>
<p>&#8211;half of us healthcare is already &#8221; government&#8221; healthcare&#8211;medicare, the veteran&#8217;s administration, military healthcare, and the federal government&#8217;s employee plan cover roughly half the population.</p>
<p>for another 30% or so, private plans, mostly provided by employers, provide coverage&#8230;and for those folks the sort of controls you compliment are very much in place&#8211;although the motivation often seems to be ensuring profitability rather than what works best medically and economically.</p>
<p>excluding coverage for &#8220;experimental&#8221; drugs and procedures is a common way to accomplish this&#8230;and the definition of &#8220;experimental&#8221; can be quite flexible, depending on corporate needs.</p>
<p>&#8211;additionally, i note that you did not address the increasing price of nearly all new drugs.</p>
<p>medicare is famously not permitted to negotiate prices of drugs, the other government providers are.</p>
<p>the trend is for any new drug to be an expensive drug, which suggests the nhs might be vulnrerable to some of the same problems we see in the us with an ever-increasing cost of pharmaceuticals.</p>
<p>us consumers are generally acknowledged to be subsidizing world consumers by bearing the cost of research and testing (this because we do not have imposed drug price controls)&#8230;but if the us moves to negotiate the price of drugs for the medicare program (which will likely occur if obama wins)&#8230;and large private buyers are doing the same thing&#8230;this suggests there will be more upward pressure put on the cost of drugs for world consumers, including the nhs.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3409','fake consultant'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a>   &#8211;  <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3409','fake consultant','couple thoughts:\n\n--half of us healthcare is already \&quot; government\&quot; healthcare--medicare, the veteran\'s administration, military healthcare, and the federal government\'s employee plan cover roughly half the population.\n\nfor another 30% or so, private plans, mostly provided by employers, provide coverage...and for those folks the sort of controls you compliment are very much in place--although the motivation often seems to be ensuring profitability rather than what works best medically and economically.\n\nexcluding coverage for \&quot;experimental\&quot; drugs and procedures is a common way to accomplish this...and the definition of \&quot;experimental\&quot; can be quite flexible, depending on corporate needs.\n\n--additionally, i note that you did not address the increasing price of nearly all new drugs.\n\nmedicare is famously not permitted to negotiate prices of drugs, the other government providers are.\n\nthe trend is for any new drug to be an expensive drug, which suggests the nhs might be vulnrerable to some of the same problems we see in the us with an ever-increasing cost of pharmaceuticals.\n\nus consumers are generally acknowledged to be subsidizing world consumers by bearing the cost of research and testing (this because we do not have imposed drug price controls)...but if the us moves to negotiate the price of drugs for the medicare program (which will likely occur if obama wins)...and large private buyers are doing the same thing...this suggests there will be more upward pressure put on the cost of drugs for world consumers, including the nhs.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div>
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		<title>By: Letters From A Tory</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/08/24/how-nice-is-nice/#comment-3411</link>
		<dc:creator>Letters From A Tory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 11:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com/?p=1024#comment-3411</guid>
		<description>The generosity of funding arrangements between Scotland and England have nothing whatsoever to do with NICE and its functions.  Scotland runs their health service differently from the NHS and presumably has different competing demands.

If Scotland or the USA or France or Australia or Mongolia or anywhere else wishes to pay for unproven, experimental cancer drugs and pour millions down the toilet in return for little clinical improvement, that is their decision.  I have no wish to see the same situation replicated here.  This post is not about whether paying for drugs is a good thing - it&#039;s about whether the finite pot of taxpayers funds that the NHS relies on should be thrown at new drugs instead of providing other services like maternity care, care for the elderly, A&amp;E units, GP services, investment in new hospitals etc.

I have no idea what your comment about being a &quot;typical old style Tory&quot; means as you didn&#039;t bother to explain yourself, but I&#039;m sure it was meant to be derogatory.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;3411&#039;,&#039;Letters From A Tory&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply to this comment&lt;/a&gt;   -  &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;3411&#039;,&#039;Letters From A Tory&#039;,&#039;The generosity of funding arrangements between Scotland and England have nothing whatsoever to do with NICE and its functions.  Scotland runs their health service differently from the NHS and presumably has different competing demands.\n\nIf Scotland or the USA or France or Australia or Mongolia or anywhere else wishes to pay for unproven, experimental cancer drugs and pour millions down the toilet in return for little clinical improvement, that is their decision.  I have no wish to see the same situation replicated here.  This post is not about whether paying for drugs is a good thing - it\&#039;s about whether the finite pot of taxpayers funds that the NHS relies on should be thrown at new drugs instead of providing other services like maternity care, care for the elderly, A&amp;E units, GP services, investment in new hospitals etc.\n\nI have no idea what your comment about being a \&quot;typical old style Tory\&quot; means as you didn\&#039;t bother to explain yourself, but I\&#039;m sure it was meant to be derogatory.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote this comment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The generosity of funding arrangements between Scotland and England have nothing whatsoever to do with NICE and its functions.  Scotland runs their health service differently from the NHS and presumably has different competing demands.</p>
<p>If Scotland or the USA or France or Australia or Mongolia or anywhere else wishes to pay for unproven, experimental cancer drugs and pour millions down the toilet in return for little clinical improvement, that is their decision.  I have no wish to see the same situation replicated here.  This post is not about whether paying for drugs is a good thing &#8211; it&#8217;s about whether the finite pot of taxpayers funds that the NHS relies on should be thrown at new drugs instead of providing other services like maternity care, care for the elderly, A&amp;E units, GP services, investment in new hospitals etc.</p>
<p>I have no idea what your comment about being a &#8220;typical old style Tory&#8221; means as you didn&#8217;t bother to explain yourself, but I&#8217;m sure it was meant to be derogatory.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3411','Letters From A Tory'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a>   &#8211;  <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3411','Letters From A Tory','The generosity of funding arrangements between Scotland and England have nothing whatsoever to do with NICE and its functions.  Scotland runs their health service differently from the NHS and presumably has different competing demands.\n\nIf Scotland or the USA or France or Australia or Mongolia or anywhere else wishes to pay for unproven, experimental cancer drugs and pour millions down the toilet in return for little clinical improvement, that is their decision.  I have no wish to see the same situation replicated here.  This post is not about whether paying for drugs is a good thing - it\'s about whether the finite pot of taxpayers funds that the NHS relies on should be thrown at new drugs instead of providing other services like maternity care, care for the elderly, A&amp;amp;E units, GP services, investment in new hospitals etc.\n\nI have no idea what your comment about being a \&quot;typical old style Tory\&quot; means as you didn\'t bother to explain yourself, but I\'m sure it was meant to be derogatory.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div>
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		<title>By: Maria</title>
		<link>http://www.lettersfromatory.com/2008/08/24/how-nice-is-nice/#comment-3410</link>
		<dc:creator>Maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:56:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lettersfromatory.wordpress.com/?p=1024#comment-3410</guid>
		<description>But why is Scotland allowed this drugs? I think you&#039;re a typical old style Tory - and this I don&#039;t really like.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;3410&#039;,&#039;Maria&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply to this comment&lt;/a&gt;   -  &lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;quote&quot; onclick=&quot;quote(&#039;3410&#039;,&#039;Maria&#039;,&#039;But why is Scotland allowed this drugs? I think you\&#039;re a typical old style Tory - and this I don\&#039;t really like.&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Quote this comment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But why is Scotland allowed this drugs? I think you&#8217;re a typical old style Tory &#8211; and this I don&#8217;t really like.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('3410','Maria'); return false;">Reply to this comment</a>   &#8211;  <a href="#" class="quote" onclick="quote('3410','Maria','But why is Scotland allowed this drugs? I think you\'re a typical old style Tory - and this I don\'t really like.'); return false;">Quote this comment</a></div>
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